17-year-old U.S. national team racer Magnus White killed by driver in Colorado - Canadian Cycling Magazine
17-year-old U.S. national team racer Magnus White killed by driver in Colorado - Canadian Cycling Magazine
17-year-old U.S. national team racer Magnus White killed by driver in Colorado. XC and cyclocross was on a training ride
White is not the only high-level cyclist to die in Colorado in recent years. In 2020, Clif Pro Team racer Ben Sonntag was killed by a driver while on a training ride outside Durango. That driver was sentenced to serve jail time in late 2021. In 2021, U.S. masters champion Gwen Inglis was killed by a driver outside Lakewood, Colorado.
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So I am just trying to understand. Do you all bike on busy dangerous roads because you have the expectation no one will hit you, or do you just not consider how dangerous it is?
Unfortunately, many of these crashes happen on NOT BUSY roads, like out in farm country and rural roads. Cyclists choose these roads specifically to be away from cars and "dangerous roads", but drivers who speed or aren't paying attention will kill you no matter where you ride!
Riding in a large group can help to reduce risks, but it's not even an option for everyone, especially if you are commuting. And even that can simply result in multiple fatalities or injuries when an inattentive driver is close by.
Without any alternatives, except to ride on a road, what other option would a cyclist have? Not ride?
Build cycling infrastructure and it becomes safer. Remove cars and it's guaranteed to be safe.
And when you consider that the majority of cycling (and pedestrian) fatalities occur in areas where cyclists and pedestrians are expected to be, including bike lanes or crosswalks, you really can't keep blaming them for causing their own deaths.
It sounds like you agree that cycling is extremely dangerous and that most fatalities happen in places where it’s expected that there are lots of cyclists.
You have to admit that if it’s well known that cars are unsafe then cycling near them is also unsafe.
Why is it that cyclists don’t have to consider their safety just because they are cycling?
People driving cars should also be considering their safety and what’s at risk to them if they decide to drive a car.
You’re responsible for own safety at the end of the day and making a decision to do something very dangerous comes with risks. It’s a risk factor like anything else. It just happens to be extremely dangerous and it seems like most people who make the decision to cycle on roads aren’t considering it, because if they did consider the actual risks I’d imagine less people would do it.
As far as what do you do? Honestly I don’t know but if your decision is to say fuck it and do it anyway then your decision shouldn’t be taken lightly. You’re risking a lot by doing so.
It sounds like you agree that cycling is extremely dangerous and that most fatalities happen in places where it’s expected that there are lots of cyclists.
Cycling is not extremely dangerous. Cars are extremely dangerous to everyone in or around them.
Per capita, car driver fatalities are dozens of times more common than pedestrian or cyclist fatalities.
Pedestrians and cyclists just happen to be killed by cars, not because walking or cycling is dangerous, but because cars are!
You have to admit that if it’s well known that cars are unsafe then cycling near them is also unsafe.
Should people just cycling indoors? I don't understand where you're going with this logic.
Yes, being near cars is unsafe. Driving a car is also unsafe. Seems like maybe we should simply get rid of cars. But since we can't, we have to work with what's available.
Why should any pedestrian or cyclist feel that they can't move freely in any setting, simply because cars are dangerous?
Kids can't get off a bus because cars are dangerous; you can't walk across a crosswalk because cars are dangerous; you can't bike ride anywhere because cars are dangerous; you can't even stand at a bus stop because cars are dangerous.
You’re responsible for own safety at the end of the day and making a decision to do something very dangerous comes with risks.
Yes, I agree that personal responsibility is important. That's why I ride with high-viz clothing, lights, reflectors, a bike radar, use hand signals, ride defensively, ride in bike lanes, and do everything else that I'm supposed to do.
And yet drivers in cars still go out of their way to put me at risk by speeding, not using turn signals, ignoring traffic signs/light, ignoring cycling lanes, passing dangerously, not passing when they have ample space, and by being distracted.
When does my personal responsibility end and a driver's personal responsibility begin? We both have EQUAL legal access to these roadways, but it seems like there's a complete imbalance of responsibility for road safety.
Should the person driving a multi-ton weapon not have a greater responsibility for operating that weapon, than the bystanders who happen to be in the same area?
The reality is that people have to get groceries, or pick up their kid at school, or drop a letter off in their local post box, or walk to a friend's house, or get exercise, or simply to enjoy fresh air. They do this on foot or by bike.
None of these activities should involve dying by car, and it's unfair to put the blame on victims who are simply doing low-risk activities which happen to be close to cars.
Got it so to sum up according to you cars are super dangerous but cycling isn’t therefore cycling near super dangerous cars isn’t dangerous. Since it isn’t dangerous cyclists do not need to consider any risk involved. That’s essentially what you’re saying.
Got it so to sum up according to you
Ok, let's do this.
cars are super dangerous
Yes. 100%.
but cycling isn’t
Correct.
therefore cycling near super dangerous cars isn’t dangerous.
No. It IS super dangerous because cars are near.
Since it isn’t dangerous cyclists do not need to consider any risk involved. That’s essentially what you’re saying.
No, it's dangerous when cars are around, but the solution isn't to not cycle.
Standing on a sidewalk is dangerous if there are cars around. Moving cars near anyone can make anything dangerous. The problem is cars (and trucks).
Now, if we can agree that cars are the critical variable that makes these situations dangerous (and not the activity itself), then we can move forward with a solution.
If I were to draw a parallel here, it would be guns and schools. Going to school isn't dangerous, but someone with a gun in school seems to cause kids to die. A lot.
Shouldn't the solution have something to do with removing guns from the equation, and not the school, or kids going to school? That's how you can look at cycling (or walking, or using a wheelchair in public, or riding an e-scooter).
The way you're describing cycling, it's as if it's some extreme sport that only crazy people do. That's not reality. Kids as young as a few years old and people over 100 ride bikes for all sorts of normal, everyday reasons. They aren't the problem.
“The way you're describing cycling, it's as if it's some extreme sport that only crazy people do. That's not reality. Kids as young as a few years old and people over 100 ride bikes for all sorts of normal, everyday reasons. They aren't the problem. “
Kind of. You’re missing the point tho. Cycling in itself isn’t dangerous and I never said it was. Cycling on a road with cars driving by at 35+ mph is in my opinion VERY extreme and crazy. You’d have to be crazy to put your life in that kind of danger.
I agree that cars are the problem and that we do most definitely need a solution.
The solution tho is NOT to be stubborn and continue cycling on dangerous roads. You’re just doubling down on your position.
Feel free to lobby the government. Feel free to seek infrastructure changes to make cycling safer. But at the end of the day it’s your choice on whether or not you want to take risks. If you go as far as taking the enormous risk of biking on busy roads then it’s you who has to live with the consequences if something bad happens.
Walking down the highway is ridiculously unsafe. It’s one thing if you find yourself in a desperate situation one day and you’re forced to do it. It’s a completely different situation tho if you’re deciding to do it for exercise. The solution is to find a better method of exercise and to not go walking down the highway.
I really don’t know what else to say. If you can’t see the danger behind walking or cycling along a busy road with cars driving by at fatal speeds then I guess we just don’t look at life the same way.
Cycling on a road with cars driving by at 35+ mph is in my opinion VERY extreme and crazy. You’d have to be crazy to put your life in that kind of danger.
Your opinion isn't grounded in fact, though. It's MORE dangerous to be in a city around cars going much slower than 35mph than a cyclist riding on rural roads where cars go faster than 35mph. Even parking lots, where cars are going super slow, pedestrians are hit because drivers suck.
And it's even still MORE dangerous to be a driver or passenger in a car, but that doesn't mean cyclists and pedestrians should continue to be victimized.
The solution tho is NOT to be stubborn and continue cycling on dangerous roads. You’re just doubling down on your position.
Where do you propose people cycle or walk? If not on empty rural roads, and not in suburban areas, and certainly not in the city. Then where?
Feel free to lobby the government. Feel free to seek infrastructure changes to make cycling safer.
Yes, there are a LOT of people who are doing this. However, nothing can truly be safe with cars being anywhere near cyclists and pedestrians.
But at the end of the day it’s your choice on whether or not you want to take risks.
If cycling is a lower risk activity than driving, why not take that option if safety is a concern? Seems extreme to drive when saver options are available.
If you go as far as taking the enormous risk of biking on
busy roadsthen it’s you who has to live with the consequences if something bad happens.Again, even NON-BUSY roads carry a risk whenever any car is nearby. Drivers have been known to plow their vehicles through storefronts, putting people INSIDE OF A STORE at risk. Does the responsibility rest with the patrons of that store to have to worry about shopping in a place that's close to a parking lot for cars?? Seems like more victim blaming.
If you can’t see the danger behind **walking **or cycling along a
busyroad with cars driving byat fatal speedsthen I guess we just don’t look at life the same way.I'm really curious to know how you get around, or if you get around, to run errands or commute. I'm assuming you don't drive, since that's the most dangerous form of transportation, but then it seems like you also don't walk or ride a bike. What else is left?
Never in a million years will you convince me that riding your bike along a busy road with no shoulder is safer then me driving down the same stretch of road in a vehicle.
If you want to exercise there are safer ways to do it. If you’re too dumb to see how dangerous it is then that’s on you.
Never in a million years will you convince me that riding your bike along a busy road with no shoulder is safer then me driving down the same stretch of road in a vehicle.
I don't know if there are stats comparing the same specific road using different modes of transportation, but overall, driving has a higher death rate per capita than cycling. Even when the roads aren't busy!
Even the CDC states that "Age-adjusted motor vehicle traffic death rates were highest for motor vehicle occupants and lowest for pedal cyclists for the entire period (1999 to 2019) (SOURCE)
You don't need to be convinced, facts don't care about what you or I think.
If you want to
exercisethere are safer ways to do it. If you’re too dumb to see how dangerous it is then that’s on you.What about commuting? Running errands? Visiting a friend the next block over? If driving is demonstrably more dangerous, and only stupid people walk or cycle, what would you do in those cases? Just stay home?
You’re grasping at straws.
Per capita death includes all scenarios. We’re not talking about all scenarios. We’re not talking about whether cars are safer then bikes.
Riding a bike is safer than driving a vehicle. NO SHIT.
We’re specifically talking about riding your bike down a busy road with cars.
You do know there are other places to ride your bike where there aren’t massive death machines driving by right?
God damn are you really this dense?
We’re specifically talking about riding your bike down a busy road with cars.
Nobody is riding bikes on freeways, if that's what you're implying. What do you consider "too busy"? 1 car per hour? 100? 1000?
Rural roads, that is, farm roads with maybe a few cars an hour, like the roads that MANY cyclists use because they aren't busy, can still kill cyclists because drivers are idiots.
What about residential neighbourhoods where kids live and play (and where cars still end up killing people)? Still too busy for bikes?
You've been blaming victims since your first comment, defending cars and relegating cycling to "extreme and crazy". Yet you haven't offered any solutions at all to what pedestrian and cyclists should do to perform their normal, daily tasks.
I'm COMPLETELY open to solutions, but it sounds like you simply don't want cyclists on the road... any of them. And that's not a solution to anything except making all areas in every community less safe to be in.