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“’Russia should not invade Ukraine’. The reason I don’t say it more is because it’s a non-statement: everybody agrees with it, even Russians. The only people who think slogans solve the problem are people who don’t understand the conflict.”
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/12/18/the-trouble-with-edward-snowden
Also, you’re actually suggesting he was aligned with Russia from the beginning and that’s why he went there?
No, I'm suggesting he doesn't have principles.
Okay second link is some author taunting Snowden about his tricky position in Russia which is essentially meaningless. Third link is a trash website pushing their app with basically only this content:
Former U.S. spy agency contractor Edward Snowden on Tuesday doubted the veracity of reports of Russia's alleged "invasion" of Ukraine and suggested that statements without evidence could provoke an escalation of the crisis.
"So... if nobody shows up for the invasion Biden scheduled for tomorrow morning at 3 a.m., I'm not saying your journalistic credibility was instrumentalized as part of one of those disinformation campaigns you like to write about, but you should at least consider the possibility," the whistleblower said
I actually find it baffling that essentially we have "at one point doubted an invasion would happen" and "exists in Russia" to hate a guy, especially who did what he did.
I believe now that I think about it, I do remember him backpedaling about the quote above and saying he was wrong.
Okay second link is some author taunting Snowden about his tricky position in Russia which is essentially meaningless.
Wow, it's amazing that in the US he was a hero, but now that he's in Russia it's a 'tricky situation'.
I actually find it baffling that essentially we have “at one point doubted an invasion would happen” and “exists in Russia” to hate a guy, especially who did what he did.
The US at the time came with receipts. It was blatantly obvious at the time. Snowden continued simping for the fascists. And he always will.
I believe now that I think about it, I do remember him backpedaling about the quote above and saying he was wrong.
Oh, okay, so it's okay to call it a CIA psyop if, after it's apparent that it's not even to the staunchest defenders of the conspiracy, you admit that it's not. Of course. Like denying that Nazi Germany is going to invade Czechoslovakia, and then admitting, once the Nazis invade Czechoslovakia, that they invaded Czechoslovakia. Quite clearly this means you are, deep down, a good fellow who definitely isn't obfuscating in service of a fascist state. Or a useful idiot, if you feel generous about his motives.
Why are you so combative about this? I read three articles and in not one did he say anything overt (he can't if he wants to live, and he can't leave to somewhere where he can speak openly) or use language at all equivalent to a "CIA psyop". Let's just leave this conversation here. You obviously loathe a person I respect a great deal and this isn't going anywhere good.
Why are you so combative about this? I read three articles and in not one did he say anything overt
Except for the part where he was denying Russia's imminent intent to invade Ukraine. Funny that when he's defending Russia he can be overt, but when criticizing it, he can't. But yes, I'm sure he's a very heroic man with great principles. Definitely not a libertarian dipshit with the usual conflicting opinions depending on whether the administration is seen as liberal or not. He called for whistleblowers to be killed, and then became one.
...... Okay, but you're still wrong. People have horrible political views and say stupid shit in their early twenties. And when they live in authoritarian countries they'd rather not live in, they can't criticize their governments. Jesus fucking Christ.
People have horrible political views and say stupid shit in their early twenties.
Oh, okay, so if I brought proof that he was still a libertarian dipshit now, you'd believe me? Or is it "He was a libertarian dipshit then, but now he's just saying the same things they are"?
And when they live in authoritarian countries they’d rather not live in,
When they flee to authoritarian countries with countless other options on the table, you mean.
they can’t criticize their governments.
Oh, okay, so risking punishment in the US was fine, but risking punishment in Russia is too far for him. Very convenient level of bravery, the perfect medium. There are ordinary Russians even now who continue to openly criticize the government, but I guess Snowden just isn't as brave as them. Very very curious level of bravery.
You haven't brought that proof. He isn't saying the same things they are. You would have zero way of knowing what his exact situation was and where he could go, he had literal minutes to make his plan, and I have no fucking clue what point you think you're making by comparing a country he literally has no choice but to stay in, that everyone "falls out of windows" in all the time, to a country he could definitely leave, maybe make better, and had an idea how to escape from. Wtf ?
Also man, your tone is incredibly condescending. And since you're a mod, I'm just waiting for you to ban me everywhere you can.
You're so far only convinced me that A) you think a lot about how much you despise Snowden, someone I've considered a hero for a decade and B) you don't respect me at all.
So awesome, great talk. If I'm not banned before I can hit submit.
You would have zero way of knowing what his exact situation was and where he could go, he had literal minutes to make his plan,
Minutes to make his plan.
Are you going to keep to this? Because I can give you quite the outline of Snowden's actions leading up to him fleeing the country, and 'minutes to make a plan' is not included in that.
and I have no fucking clue what point you think you’re making by comparing a country he literally has no choice but to stay in, that everyone “falls out of windows” in all the time, to a country he could definitely leave, maybe make better, and had an idea how to escape from.
"He did something that was beneficial. This does not make him a good person. It does not make him brave. It certainly doesn't make him wise. He's a cowardly dipshit who is now supporting a fascist regime."
Also man, your tone is incredibly condescending. And since you’re a mod, I’m just waiting for you to ban me everywhere you can.
I don't ban people for disagreeing with me. And certainly not in any place they hadn't broken the rules in.
You’re so far only convinced me that A) you think a lot about how much you despise Snowden, someone I’ve considered a hero for a decade
Yep, I reconsidered the issue in-depth after the Ukrainian War began.
B) you don’t respect me at all.
It's the internet, man. You're words on a screen putting forth shitty arguments. Tomorrow you may be putting forward good arguments; tomorrow you may be putting forth bad arguments. I take things as they come.
You're words on a screen
Yeah, it is quite clear that is how you're treating this. Text, conveying awful evil ideas from a faceless enemy without feelings or a soul. I gotta go.
Yeah, I'm not here to discuss politics from the point of "How does the other person feel about my criticism of a third party whose behavior influences more people than you or I will ever even speak to?" but "Is this correct or incorrect? Is this moral or immoral? Is this a valid argument, or invalid?"
...you just reposted the quote I gave you implying he doesn't support that war and wishes he could actually say it more bluntly. And the first link I mostly read and found nothing like what you wrote about it being a "psyop".
Fleeing life in prison or execution in a hurry doesn't determine one's principles. I find that a weird claim.
I will look at the other links but so far this has been...disappointing.
Snowden essentially sacrificed his freedom to show that the US government is spying on its citizens. If anything were to imply principles, that would be it.
…you just reposted the quote I gave you implying he doesn’t support that war and wishes he could actually say it more bluntly.
No, I highlighted the part of your quote in which he implied that the war was not imminent and that anyone who 'understands the conflict' at a time when America was warning of the oncoming invasion, would understand that Russia had no desire to invade Ukraine as a means of resolution of the ongoing political dispute.
From one of my other links
"So... if nobody shows up for the invasion Biden scheduled for tomorrow morning at 3 a.m., I'm not saying your journalistic credibility was instrumentalized as part of one of those disinformation campaigns you like to write about, but you should at least consider the possibility," the whistleblower said.
Fleeing life in prison or execution in a hurry doesn’t determine one’s principles. I find that a weird claim.
So if I expose, say, Britain's wrongdoings in World War 2, and flee to Nazi Germany, do I have:
A. Principles
B. No Principles
Cowardice is not a principle.
Of course, that assumes a choice between two countries, as stated before, large swathes of the world don't have extradition treaties with the US, yet he just happened to choose (with the help of Assange) the fascist state.
Very curious.
Snowden essentially sacrificed his freedom to show that the US government is spying on its citizens. If anything were to imply principles, that would be it.
"He did something I like, so he has principles"
He pissed off to a cushy position in Russia where he gets constant asspats from the terminally online while lending credibility to a fascist regime. Principles are not high on his list of priorities, quite apparently.
You're really going to compare this Nazi Germany..? Yikes.
I have read and agreed with many things you've written but you're just wrong about this one. Doesn't seem you're open to challenging your view though, so that's fine.
You’re really going to compare this Nazi Germany…? Yikes.
... you're really going to say modern Russia, a brutal totalitarian state, invading a neighboring sovereign state unprovoked and performing genocide isn't comparable to Nazi Germany?
... really?
I think you become nazi germany when you invade multiple countries, have a master-race ideology and lock people into concentration camps. Russia ain't anywhere near Nazi Germany yet.
Chechnya (twice), Georgia (twice), Ukraine (twice or three times, depending on how you count it).
How much more do you want? Are we only allowing post-1939 Nazi Germany? Are we going to have to wait for Poland to be invaded and another Katyn Massacre, since Ukrainian genocide isn't enough to call them Nazis?
A bunch of random citizens isn't going to sway me.
Until you've got the government itself proclaiming master race shit, they ain't Nazi.
Prisons are also not concentration camps. You know what I mean by concentration camp, where people go to be exterminated en masse. Russia Prisons are shit, but they're not concentration camps.
Russia isn't on the level of Nazi Germany.
Until you’ve got the government itself proclaiming master race shit, they ain’t Nazi.
In 2021, the official discourse in Russia changed quite unexpectedly: in the summer and autumn an anti-migrant campaign unfolded in state media, as reflected in statements by pro-government politicians and public figures. Actively discussed were such (supposed) issues as the threat of “ethnic crime,” excessive numbers of migrants and the harm they do to the labor market.
The reason for this campaign remains unclear, especially considering that the number of foreigners in Russia had declined significantly due to pandemic-related entry restrictions. In addition, in many cases the media wrote about threats emanating not only from migrants, but also from Russian citizens – for example, from Dagestanis or from foreigners who had long ago taken Russian citizenship – which only showed the racist underpinnings of the campaign.
“Gangs of uninvited guests threaten every Russian individually and all Russians collectively. It would not be an exaggeration to say that before our eyes a threat to the Russian State itself has emerged,” wrote Konstantin Malofeev.
Since the beginning of 2024, the SOVA Center has recorded 136 cases of such vigilantism. In Kaluga Region, for example, Russian Community participated in police checks of migrants at construction sites and restaurants, collaborated with the Directorate for Traffic Safety in cracking down on illegal taxis, and in Ryazan and Yekaterinburg, as well as Krasnodar Region, even patrolled the streets.
“The convergence of the official political rhetoric with nationalist ideology is perceived by nationalists as an unofficial green light for vigilante initiatives.”
Prisons are also not concentration camps. You know what I mean by concentration camp, where people go to be exterminated en masse. Russia Prisons are shit, but they’re not concentration camps.
So Nazi Germany wasn't Nazi Germany until 1941?
So Nazi Germany wasn’t Nazi Germany until 1941?
Are you being deliberately obtuse?
Russia isn't like Nazi Germany at all. They become Nazis once the government starts believing in a master-race ideology and exterminating people based on their creed.
Being anti-migrant is not the same as Nazi Germany's "Let's exterminate the lesser races."
Saying this is Nazi, that is Nazi, everything is Nazi, gives actual neo-nazis more power. Stop calling things that you don't like Hitler.
I have read and agreed with many things you've written
When I wrote this, I was hoping it would make you realize I'm not your enemy, that we could have a better conversation. I wish I'd been right.
The war started in 2014, he went to Russia in 2013 and obviously hasn't been in a position to leave. Hate me if you want but you're just wrong about this.
I'm sorry, do I have to outline the numerous actions of Russia in and before 2013 that made it quite clear they were a fascist state? "He went to Nazi Germany before it invaded Czechoslovakia" is not the excuse you think it is.
"He did something out of desperation" is not the moral statement you think it is. This is a rage boner for the ages
"He went to Nazi Germany out of desperation, when he had numerous other choices that weren't Nazi Germany" is a moral statement. Or rather, a statement of lack of morals.
I hated him much less before the Ukraine War started. I was willing to accept that he had just made a dumb decision, and that he was just a coward for lending credibility to the fascist government he was under. After his comments and constant dodges on the Ukrainian War? I interpret his motivations in a much more negative light.
Why are you like this? I feel emptier inside after having read this.
You feel emptier after having read someone criticize someone you've never met for choosing to flee to a fascist regime, support that fascist regime's talking points during an ongoing genocide, and still get hailed as a hero by some corners of the internet?
I think you're taking this altogether too personally.