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… public support for unions in the 90s was much, much lower than it is today, by some 20%, while union membership has stagnated rather than decreased since 2000.
Was that due to politicians, or because the working class keeps getting crushed by those same politicians which creates class consciousness?
Real wages have stagnated, that’s not the same as getting poorer. The fact that this is a recent development should very much inform you that who’s in office matters.
That's an absurd statement. Cost of living has exploded, but your wage hasn't increased and you're not poorer? Ok bud. Sure it matters whose in office. Usually even fascists would think doing the sort of deregulation that caused multiple economic crises like the Clintons did would be too much on the nose.
Do… do you think economic shocks and crisises didn’t happen before now…?
You've had one bubble every 10 years like clockwork ever since the Clinton deregulations which have only been "fixed" by passing the buck down the line.
And of course the Clintons didn't cause the Capitalist cycle boom and busts, but they were instrumental in dismantling the protections the US had put to lessen its impacts and frequencies.
Was that due to politicians, or because the working class keeps getting crushed by those same politicians which creates class consciousness?
You think there's a sense of class consciousness in the US? Since the 90s?
Tell me another one.
That’s an absurd statement. Cost of living has exploded, but your wage hasn’t increased and you’re not poorer?
Do you not know what 'real wages' means
Ok bud. Sure it matters whose in office. Usually even fascists would think doing the sort of deregulation that caused multiple economic crises like the Clintons did would be too much on the nose.
Oh, great, now we're at "neoliberals are literally worse than fascists".
You’ve had one bubble every 10 years like clockwork ever since the Clinton deregulations which have only been fixed by passing the buck down the line.
Okay, so your position is that we've been having bubbles and busts more regularly since the Clinton years than before them, and that is a symptom or component of fascism. Is that your position? I'd like to nail that down.
You think there’s a sense of class consciousness in the US? Since the 90s?
There's always class consciousness, even in the most dystopian times. It existed in the Gilded age which was much much worse for workers, and it exists now and as we see, it's growing. Ergo the union revival.
Okay, so your position is that we’ve been having bubbles and busts more regularly since the Clinton years than before them, and that is a symptom or component of fascism. Is that your position? I’d like to nail that down.
My position is that voting for the Clintons didn't do shit to prevent the move towards fascism. Much like voting any politicians before or after them did.
There’s always class consciousness, even in the most dystopian times. It existed in the Gilded age which was much much worse for workers, and it exists now and as we see, it’s growing. Ergo the union revival.
Consider the question reformed - you think there's an improved sense of class consciousness in the US since the 90s?
My position is that voting for the Clintons didn’t do shit to prevent the move towards fascism.
Then what the fuck is the point of your arguments about economic booms and busts?
Much like voting any politicians before or after them did.
Fuck's sake, if you don't think that the election of Reagan, Bush Jr, and Trump, at the bare minimum, moved forward fascism in this country, I don't know what the fuck kind of conversation we can have.
Consider the question reformed - you think there’s an improved sense of class consciousness in the US since the 90s?
Yes.
Then what the fuck is the point of your arguments about economic booms and busts?
You brought up the 90s as a good period, motherfucker!
Fuck’s sake, if you don’t think that the election of Reagan, Bush Jr, and Trump, at the bare minimum, moved forward fascism in this country, I don’t know what the fuck kind of conversation we can have.
It did, and so did Clinton and Obama and whoever else. Or you wouldn't be on the precipice of fascism!
Yes.
So you think there has been progress on the matter since the 90s?
You brought up the 90s as a good period, motherfucker!
Are you being intentionally disingenuous right now?
Let's review the conversation.
You: "Are you using the 90s as a period where things became better in the US?!"
Me: "No, I’m using the 90s as a period that we’ve significantly improved over."
Literal, word-for-word quotes.
Would you like to try again?
It did, and so did Clinton and Obama and whoever else. Or you wouldn’t be on the precipice of fascism!
Okay, so, let me get this straight - your argument is that Reagan, Bush Jr, and Trump moved forward fascism the same amount as Clinton and Obama.
So you think there has been progress on the matter since the 90s?
No, the opposite. Which created more class consciousness as a reaction.
No, I’m using the 90s as a period that we’ve significantly improved over
WTF does this even mean then? "Improved over" doesn't mean "gotten better", what? Whatever the fuck "improved over" means, it led directly to crises and wars.
Okay, so, let me get this straight - your argument is that Reagan, Bush Jr, and Trump moved forward fascism the same amount as Clinton and Obama.
My argument is that voting doesn't do anything to avoid moving towards fascism or to overall improve material conditions for the non-rich inside capitalism.
No, the opposite. Which created more class consciousness as a reaction.
So class consciousness is the opposite of progress on the matter of labor, improved opinions on unions are the opposite of progress, and stagnation on union membership is regression.
WTF does this even mean then? “Improved over” doesn’t mean “gotten better”, what?
Generally one regards "improved over" as meaning "improved over", ie the 90s were worse than today. You know, literally the exact opposite of calling the 90s a good time.
Whatever the fuck “improved over” means, it led directly to crises and wars.
Okay, so now you're saying the 90s led to MORE crises and wars today than there were before. Is THAT your argument?
Are you going to hold to a single fucking position in this conversation, or are you just wasting my time?
My argument is that voting doesn’t do anything to avoid moving towards fascism or to overall improve material conditions for the non-rich inside capitalism.
Which necessarily implies that all those who have been elected have been inconsequential with regards to the movement of fascism. If voting cannot do anything to avoid moving towards fascism, then the difference between the amount fascism increased under Bush Jr. would have been exactly the same as under Al Gore. If that's NOT true, then voting DOES have an effect and DOES matter.
Are you going to hold to a single fucking position in this conversation, or are you just wasting my time?
They are doing two things here. Wasting your time, and repeating the message "don't vote" as many times as they can. They're relying on the same techniques as marketers here. Likely paid to do it. What a twisted world we live in, honestly, where such a thing would ever be true...
I don't think DBZ is paid to do this. I think they're legitimately just cynical and unwilling to confront their own position on the matter. It happens, to all of us. But it's still important to call out.
So class consciousness is the opposite of progress on the matter of labor, improved opinions on unions are the opposite of progress, and stagnation on union membership is regression.
...wat
Okay, so now you’re saying the 90s led to MORE crises and wars today than there were before. Is THAT your argument?
I've already told you my argument. And yes they did.
Which necessarily implies that all those who have been elected have been inconsequential with regards to the movement of fascism. If voting cannot do anything to avoid moving towards fascism, then the difference between the amount fascism increased under Bush Jr. would have been exactly the same as under Al Gore. If that’s NOT true, then voting DOES have an effect and DOES matter.
Whether there would be slightly less fascism or not (we can't really know) is irrelevant when it all leads to genocide(s). I'm not going to bollocks around with hypotheticals. Fact of the matter is that voting went from a country that fought against fascism, to a country that funds genocides and is on the precipice of fascism itself.
Whether there would be slightly less fascism or not (we can't really know) is irrelevant
What a laughably idiotic way to frame the American decline. Trump equals George Washington, up equals down. Left equals right.
Nothing matters in the world until I say it does. Flimsy reasoning which ignores all inconvenient details is God
…wat
You're saying there's progress, but it doesn't count as progress.
I’ve already told you my argument. And yes they did.
So if I showed you hard proof that there were less wars and less severe wars and economic crisises post-1990s than pre-1990s, you'd concede the point.
Whether there would be slightly less fascism or not (we can’t really know) is irrelevant when it all leads to genocide(s). I’m not going to bollocks around with hypotheticals.
If you aren't going to bollocks around with hypotheticals, then you have no opinions except "What has happened has happened". No opinions on what can or cannot change. That's what a hypothetical is - something that did not or has not come to pass. How do you hold any fucking opinions at all if you aren't going to 'bollocks around with hypotheticals'? You have no answer to the logical conclusion of your assertions, and so bail on your points every goddamn time I dispute them.
Fact of the matter is that voting went from a country that fought against fascism, to a country that funds genocides and is on the precipice of fascism itself.
So you think America now is more fascist and genocidal than America back when we fought fascism, ie in the early 1940s?
That's fucking insane. We're done here.
So if I showed you hard proof that there were less wars and less severe wars and economic crisises post-1990s than pre-1990s, you’d concede the point.
Depends on how far back you go and whether you include shadow wars and coups funded by the US. Not to mention that the crisis of 2008 is not even fully resolved yet and rather just paved over with free money.
So you think America now is more fascist and genocidal than America back when we fought fascism, ie in the early 1940s?
Yep. Literally funding a genocide right now, so...
Yes the typical "don't vote, everyone, let's burn it the fuck to the ground" dipshittery