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I don't think you remember the 90s very well. This is the period where neoliberalism finally triumphed. It's very much not a war. It's a slow, inevitable collapse into fascism
I don’t think you remember the 90s very well.
I remember it well enough. Calling LGBT folk slurs was regarded as normal and funny, marital rape was still legal in multiple states, the 'compromise' position of LGBT folk in the military was "Stay in the closet and you're allowed to serve", supporting gay marriage was anathema to literally 90% of the country, police brutality was celebrated and it was considered that it was necessary to get 'harder' on Black communities, unions were actively disparaged, etc etc etc etc etc etc.
It’s very much not a war. It’s a slow, inevitable collapse into fascism
Oh, okay, we've just been collapsing for [checks notes] 200+ years, and getting less and less authoritarian all the while. Strange collapse into fascism we're having here.
I remember it well enough. Calling LGBT folk slurs was regarded as normal and funny, marital rape was still legal in multiple states, the ‘compromise’ position of LGBT folk in the military was “Stay in the closet and you’re allowed to serve”, supporting gay marriage was anathema to literally 90% of the country, police brutality was celebrated and it was considered that it was necessary to get ‘harder’ on Black communities, unions were actively disparaged, etc etc etc etc etc etc.
And unions were crushed even further, people got even poorer while the rich took over everything, multiple new wars, economic shocks and crises. But ye it's OK because corporations celebrate pride day now because they can sell you stuff.
Not to mention that the progress of LGBT rights had nothing to do with voting for the right politicians and rather with the pressure of activists towards capital and the general progressiveness of society. The proof to that is that LGBT rights continued improving all through the Bush era just as much.
and getting less and less authoritarian all the while.
Are you even thinking of the same country? Even Lego inadvertedly captured the massive police state the US is turning into. The protests that happened at the turn of the century and in the 2010, are now destroyed with extreme prejudice before they start.
What the fuck are you smoking to suggest this person said "it's all ok"?
And unions were crushed even further,
... public support for unions in the 90s was much, much lower than it is today, by some 20%, while union membership has stagnated rather than decreased since 2000.
people got even poorer while the rich took over everything,
Real wages have stagnated, that's not the same as getting poorer. The fact that this is a recent development should very much inform you that who's in office matters.
multiple new wars,
That's a curious accusation to level along with "The ruling puppet doesn't matter!" considering the influence of the Bush administration on that particular subject.
economic shocks and crises.
Do... do you think economic shocks and crisises didn't happen before now...?
On the contrary, I assure you they were much worse.
Are you even thinking of the same country? Even lego inadvertedly captured the massive police state the US is turning into. The protests that happened at the turn of the century are now destroyed with extreme prejudice.
... what.
Not to mention that the progress of LGBT rights had nothing to do with voting for the right politicians and rather with the pressure of activists towards capital and the general progressiveness of society. The proof to that is that LGBT rights continued improving all through the Bush era just as much.
Fucking what.
… public support for unions in the 90s was much, much lower than it is today, by some 20%, while union membership has stagnated rather than decreased since 2000.
Was that due to politicians, or because the working class keeps getting crushed by those same politicians which creates class consciousness?
Real wages have stagnated, that’s not the same as getting poorer. The fact that this is a recent development should very much inform you that who’s in office matters.
That's an absurd statement. Cost of living has exploded, but your wage hasn't increased and you're not poorer? Ok bud. Sure it matters whose in office. Usually even fascists would think doing the sort of deregulation that caused multiple economic crises like the Clintons did would be too much on the nose.
Do… do you think economic shocks and crisises didn’t happen before now…?
You've had one bubble every 10 years like clockwork ever since the Clinton deregulations which have only been "fixed" by passing the buck down the line.
And of course the Clintons didn't cause the Capitalist cycle boom and busts, but they were instrumental in dismantling the protections the US had put to lessen its impacts and frequencies.
Was that due to politicians, or because the working class keeps getting crushed by those same politicians which creates class consciousness?
You think there's a sense of class consciousness in the US? Since the 90s?
Tell me another one.
That’s an absurd statement. Cost of living has exploded, but your wage hasn’t increased and you’re not poorer?
Do you not know what 'real wages' means
Ok bud. Sure it matters whose in office. Usually even fascists would think doing the sort of deregulation that caused multiple economic crises like the Clintons did would be too much on the nose.
Oh, great, now we're at "neoliberals are literally worse than fascists".
You’ve had one bubble every 10 years like clockwork ever since the Clinton deregulations which have only been fixed by passing the buck down the line.
Okay, so your position is that we've been having bubbles and busts more regularly since the Clinton years than before them, and that is a symptom or component of fascism. Is that your position? I'd like to nail that down.
You think there’s a sense of class consciousness in the US? Since the 90s?
There's always class consciousness, even in the most dystopian times. It existed in the Gilded age which was much much worse for workers, and it exists now and as we see, it's growing. Ergo the union revival.
Okay, so your position is that we’ve been having bubbles and busts more regularly since the Clinton years than before them, and that is a symptom or component of fascism. Is that your position? I’d like to nail that down.
My position is that voting for the Clintons didn't do shit to prevent the move towards fascism. Much like voting any politicians before or after them did.
There’s always class consciousness, even in the most dystopian times. It existed in the Gilded age which was much much worse for workers, and it exists now and as we see, it’s growing. Ergo the union revival.
Consider the question reformed - you think there's an improved sense of class consciousness in the US since the 90s?
My position is that voting for the Clintons didn’t do shit to prevent the move towards fascism.
Then what the fuck is the point of your arguments about economic booms and busts?
Much like voting any politicians before or after them did.
Fuck's sake, if you don't think that the election of Reagan, Bush Jr, and Trump, at the bare minimum, moved forward fascism in this country, I don't know what the fuck kind of conversation we can have.
Consider the question reformed - you think there’s an improved sense of class consciousness in the US since the 90s?
Yes.
Then what the fuck is the point of your arguments about economic booms and busts?
You brought up the 90s as a good period, motherfucker!
Fuck’s sake, if you don’t think that the election of Reagan, Bush Jr, and Trump, at the bare minimum, moved forward fascism in this country, I don’t know what the fuck kind of conversation we can have.
It did, and so did Clinton and Obama and whoever else. Or you wouldn't be on the precipice of fascism!
Yes.
So you think there has been progress on the matter since the 90s?
You brought up the 90s as a good period, motherfucker!
Are you being intentionally disingenuous right now?
Let's review the conversation.
You: "Are you using the 90s as a period where things became better in the US?!"
Me: "No, I’m using the 90s as a period that we’ve significantly improved over."
Literal, word-for-word quotes.
Would you like to try again?
It did, and so did Clinton and Obama and whoever else. Or you wouldn’t be on the precipice of fascism!
Okay, so, let me get this straight - your argument is that Reagan, Bush Jr, and Trump moved forward fascism the same amount as Clinton and Obama.
So you think there has been progress on the matter since the 90s?
No, the opposite. Which created more class consciousness as a reaction.
No, I’m using the 90s as a period that we’ve significantly improved over
WTF does this even mean then? "Improved over" doesn't mean "gotten better", what? Whatever the fuck "improved over" means, it led directly to crises and wars.
Okay, so, let me get this straight - your argument is that Reagan, Bush Jr, and Trump moved forward fascism the same amount as Clinton and Obama.
My argument is that voting doesn't do anything to avoid moving towards fascism or to overall improve material conditions for the non-rich inside capitalism.