Is degrowth possible under capitalism?
Is degrowth possible under capitalism?
Let's put some life into this sub. I don't think degrowth is possible under capitalism because the imperative to degrow contradicts the capitalist drive for the creation of value (valorization) which must always grow under capitalism'
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I'm pretty sure the destruction of value is inconsequential in a capitalist model until you destroy means of production. In fact, I'm pretty sure destroying things would be beneficial to capitalism, because then it would be able to produce useful things again rather than trying to invent new useless shit all the time.
Is it compatible with degrowth though? Well, I'm pretty sure we are already living it. The growth is mostly virtual imo, but the actual riches is decreasing for most people in the west. The growth benefit is going more and more to the privileged, and the poor get their public services slowly decaying because the growth doesn't go into it.
Which is why I hate this concept of degrowth. Growth as a concept only serve one purpose : it's an illusion so people can believe capitalism will benefit everyone. But the core problem of capitalism is the asymmetry of power between the capitalists and the workers. And degrowth does nothing against this asymmetry, so a de growing world would only make the life of workers even worse.
Degrowth is perfectly possible IMO withing capitalism. Wars and crisis are mostly about that.
Finally, the biggest problem for ecology is not actually capitalism, it's consumerism. Consumerism is a consequence of capitalism, but not a necessity of it. What you usually want to solve with degrowth is consumerism.
Wow. First, degrowth isn't austerity or recession, it's about focusing on improving human welfare instead of profits. This innately challenges the asymmetry of the workers and owners. Degrowth is also about decreasing work, something inherently challenging to the capitalist mode of production.
Finally, of course capitalism is the problem. Consumerism is a symptom of capitalism, not the root cause of the ecological crisis.
Then it is the worst possible word chosen for this philosophy. You don't need degrowth to decrease work. And the lack of growth always meant and still means for most people that life is getting shitty, so you will never convince anyone that degrowth is good thing.
"De" in Latin and similar languages means away rather then against, that would be anti. Like in delivery, deliberate, deescaltion and so forth.
I know a few people who choose to work less hours and get paid less, as they value their free time more or took jobs with lower pay, which are more fun to them. It happens all the time in the real world, but intresstingly our political and economic system has a lot of problems with that. Obviously that is a very different situation then having a lot of free time due to being fired. That is basicly the difference between degrowth and a recession. One is exchanging GDP for something of value, the other is a problem in the system.
Well, maybe it's an English thing. In French décroissance is the opposite of croissance. But I'm not sure it's well perceived either in English countries.
That's the problem I'm talking about: only privileged people can see degrowth as a good thing, because they're already swimming in more than they can live with. Most people, even in rich countries, are poor. They don't want to hear about decreasing their way of life because they're already on the floor and on the verge of poverty, if they're not outright into it.
The very concept of degrowth needs to die and be replaced by a new one. Because it's a concept that's only useful for the bourgeoisie right now. It's a concept for privileged people who want to feel better about it and do something. It is very much part of the liberal mindset of the privigeled people of these countries. The very idea that the change comes from the people behaviours rather than the system itself.
Hey.
Most degrowth advocates I've seen or read in France are not talking about lifestyle changes for individuals - or at least, not without radical changes in the organization of society.
I agree that blaming poor people for driving shitty cars and living in poorly insulated buildings is stupid and counter-productive. But that's how ecology is concieved by the ruling political class, not degrowth advocates.
The richest 10% are responsible for about half of global emissions. That also works for energy, income and most other things in that area. Globally we have a bit over 18% low carbon primary energy. Since emissions and energy are closely related, that pretty much means that you can lower global emissions by 2/3 or so by bringing down the global top 10% emitters to a bit over global average. To be in the top 10% of incomes your income needs to be above $35,000 per year. That is above the median income of Norway, Luxembourg or the US. So even in the richest countries most of the population does not have to cut back.
How would you envision capitalism without consumerism ? I fail to see how capitalism would work without mass consumption.
If I may enter the discussion. I think it's very very hard but may be possible. Let's say people only buy new things when it's something they need and the things itself should work for a long time, like generations. It reduces consumerism, things would only be replaced if something greatly superior appeared. Some things would still be bought so there is still some capitalism but wouldnt be focused on mindless spending in junk. Things would be more expensive but overall we'd have better things.
You are describing market economy, not capitalism.
Fair enough. Degrowth from capitalism to market economy is more of an obtainable goal
Maybe if everyone had access to roughly the same wealth, market economy could be a good method of balancing economy ?
Yes but it's tough to imagine a path to that.
True. But there has been experiments, especially around melting currencies (is that the correct English name ?).
A recent example (in French, but I guess automatic translators are good enough now ?) : https://monnaie-libre.fr/
Thank you for that, I wasn't aware that was a thing! I'll bookmark that to read later as it seems a bit long! I didn't even know melting currencies were a thing
Such is the power of economic orthodoxy - to trick you into thinking there is no alternative, that economic laws are laws of nature when they are "only" social constructions ...
Capitalism is the question of whom possess the means of production. Consumerism is a lot more than that, it is an ideal for people to find happiness in the accumulation of goods.
Capitalism is a organisation of society. Consumerism is the purpose of this society. You have a different purpose. The fascist purpose is different for example, although not incompatible with consumerism.
Consumerism is particular with capitalism though because it happens naturally. Capitalism doesn't hold any purpose by itself, but the people who established it were driven by greed. The accumulation of wealth was their ideology. And capitalism is a very good way for that. Which is why it is easy to see them intertwined. But they are both independent IMO.
Not sure I agree with everything, let me rephrase this.
The way I see it, capitalism is a way of organizing an economic system that is based on accumulation of wealth (capital). Instead of sitting idle, capital is injected back into the economy through investment, with the promise of a juicy return on investment (and also, it gives power to those who own capital for they decide who gets investment).
For this juicy ROI to be possible, economic growth is a necessity - you can't give back more to your lenders if what you did with the investment didn't generate more value than the investment itself. So economic growth is at the very heart of capitalism.
When the market comes to a saturation point, growth starts to slow down. So you have two options:
- open new markets, expanding the economic sphere (either geographically or in new segments of life)
- make disposable products, through engineering (planned obsolescence) or advertisement (you need the new iPhone, believe me)
In the end, I don't see consumerism as an ideal for a society, but rather the logical consequence of an economic system reified as an ideal. It doesn't mean something similar couldn't exist in another economic model, but I don't think it can be separated from capitalism.
Ok, here a clearer explanation : a saturated market is a good example of capitalism without actual growth. Let's say you have 3 capitalists on a saturated market. The market will not grow, because it's saturated, so they will, in turn, increase their share of the market at the expanse of the other. That's what happens for example with graphic cards.
Capitalism doesn't need growth, as long as someone can lose wealth, someone else can benefit from the loss. Growth merely helps to have less losers if the growth is shared (which doesn't happens naturally). That's why I was describing growth as an illusion for people to believe in capitalism. Capitalism doesn't need growth, growth only allow less losers. But growth doesn't fix anything about capitalism, and you need consumerism to fuel it, which in turns destroy the planet.
I see what you mean, but I think it's true up to a certain point. Without growth, wealth concentration converges to a point where one actor owns everything. This is the perfect recipe for political instability and systemic failure.
It is to some extent. Unrest or even revolutions don't necessarily end capitalism. It rarely does actually.
IMO capitalism is inherently unstable. Capitalism cannot gracefully adapt to unexpected shocks (it will cause economic troubles, many people will have their lives ruined and many will profit from thee chaos), and it causes it's own crisis on a regular basis. I once saw a paper that was arguing that crisis were normal capitalist regime, because since the 19th century there were more periods of crisis than periods of stable growth.