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I'm sorry, what's hateful about what I wrote? You could have at least explained that before ranting about it.
Sorry for "frying your brain". Patriotic Americans own flags, hoist them, and fly them, showing respect for our neighbors and law and order. It may seem unrelated to being a law-abiding citizen if you're not part of the culture.
I’m sorry, what’s hateful about what I wrote? You could have at least explained that before ranting about it.
You would rather people (and children) die than receive any kind of help through immigration. You are calling people bottom of the barrel for trying to escape from danger. You are dehumanizing people on the basis of a single non-violent crime. You are judging your political opponents as criminals for failing to hold a false idol to the same standard you do.
All of which is incredibly hateful.
Upvoted for a pretty good explanation, though I do disagree that any of that is hateful, and I don't know what "false idol" you referred to.
I'll tell you this: I don't feel any hatred in my heart towards illegal immigrants, nor towards my political opponents. I mean that honestly.
So I take issue with your claim of hatred, as it's factually incorrect.
I don’t know what “false idol” you referred to.
The flag
I’ll tell you this: I don’t feel any hatred in my heart towards illegal immigrants, nor towards my political opponents. I mean that honestly.
So I take issue with your claim of hatred, as it’s factually incorrect.
You don't have to hate somebody to do something hateful towards them or say something hateful. Hate isn't always intentional.
The flag
Gotcha. The flag's not a false idol at all. Not sure where you live, but I'm in a fairly Christian conservative area, and it's commonplace to see "kneel for the cross, stand for the flag" signs. Nobody worships the flag. It's just a uniting symbol of our neighbors across the nation. When we say "love your neighbor", the flag is the imagery that comes to mind for me. It's not an idol at all, just a symbol of our fellow Americans, who we strive to love.
You don’t have to hate somebody to do something hateful towards them or say something hateful. Hate isn’t always intentional.
What a peculiar claim. Hatred is a feeling. I know what's in my heart. You don't. You can misinterpret my words, but you can't rightfully ascribe feelings to my heart which I don't feel.
The flag’s not a false idol at all. Not sure where you live, but I’m in a fairly Christian conservative area, and it’s commonplace to see “kneel for the cross, stand for the flag” signs.
That fits the bill:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idolatry
Nobody worships the flag.
They absolutely do, and you've done quite a bit of it yourself from what I have read from you. You treat is as a moral failure for not treating the flag with the utmost respect, and that is a form of worship.
What a peculiar claim. Hatred is a feeling. I know what’s in my heart. You don’t. You can misinterpret my words, but you can’t rightfully ascribe feelings to my heart which I don’t feel.
Hate can be a feeling, but it isn't always a feeling. Hatred can be a cold unfeeling action, or speech. Granted, I think if this part of the conversation continues any further then it will devolve into semantics.
Semantics matter! So many of our disagreements are rooted in our using different definitions, and talking past each other, thinking the other side is crazy because we're misinterpreting each other's words.
You don't have to convince me to change my personal definition of anything. But by defining yours, as you have, I can understand where you're coming from. The fact that I don't consider it hatred doesn't much matter.
So @thepixelfox's point (and I suppose your point too) that I am cold and unfeeling towards foreigners who break into the US illegally is absolutely correct. Again I want to emphasize that I don't hate these people emotionally. But I don't think they deserve an ounce of our sympathy either. They're not our neighbors; they're hostile invaders.
You treat is as a moral failure for not treating the flag with the utmost respect, and that is a form of worship.
I'd treat it as a moral failure to disrespect a neighbor, and the flag symbolizes our neighbors. Moreover, I believe the US is one nation under God, and that concept is represented in our flag.
Listen, I'm a sinner, and I don't pretend to be even slightly perfect. There is so much I deserve to be judged for, and I'll accept that judgment when the day comes. But one of the few sins I'm not guilty of, to the best of my knowledge, is idolatry.
And in my experience, it's uncommon for others to worship the flag either. Treating it with respect out of respect for our neighbors and our nation is wholly different from worshiping it.
They’re not our neighbors; they’re hostile invaders.
They aren't hostile though. They commit crimes at a lower rate than the general population. And they aren't moving here out of malice, they are doing so to have better lives.
I’d treat it as a moral failure to disrespect a neighbor, and the flag symbolizes our neighbors.
Not everyone sees the flag that way. A lot of people see it in a negative light for a lot of different reasons. But that's it's own tangent.
My point is, regardless of what the flag represents, it is a symbol/image (idol) other than god that is worshiped.
it’s uncommon for others to worship the flag either
When Kaepernick kneeled instead of standing for the flag/anthem, people hated his guts ultimately because he wasn't worshiping it, and worshiping it is often seen as the default. I won't speak to how common it is, but it is definitely common enough to be noticeable. Another good example is how school children worship the flag every day with the pledge of allegiance.
Once somebody becomes an illegal, everything they do is inherently illegal until they retreat from American soil. How is it possible for them to be less illegal than a bona fide American when their entire state of being, and everything they do, is inherently illegal? It seems like you're telling me I'd see that they're actually good citizens if only I'd ignore the facts that they're neither good nor citizens.
Anyone who has any kind of negative association with the American flag needs to get out of the US, ASAP, and I do support deportation for them. But you're right, that's it's own tangent.
With regard to your position on idolatry, I do understand your viewpoint, and I don't defend idolatry. Of all the various reasons one might refuse to salute the flag, I think a fear of idolatry is perhaps the only one I'd consider valid. I get why you wouldn't want to touch it with a ten-foot pole. I only ask that you trust me when I say I don't worship the flag.
In my personal life, whenever I pledge my allegiance to the flag (which happens at least once per week), it's always preceded by a prayer. That's the same way it always was for school children too until SCOTUS banned it in '62. I believe that was a mistake, and saying the pledge without an opening prayer can certainly leave the wrong impression.
Once somebody becomes an illegal, everything they do is inherently illegal until they retreat from American soil. How is it possible for them to be less illegal than a bona fide American when their entire state of being, and everything they do, is inherently illegal?
That's not how the legal system treats it. Being in the country illegal is counted as one crime.
Anyone who has any kind of negative association with the American flag needs to get out of the US, ASAP, and I do support deportation for them.
The government deporting people based on political opinions like this is antithetical to the founding principles of our nation, and is un-american. It's also a violation of the first amendment.
I only ask that you trust me when I say I don’t worship the flag.
I'm sorry but I can't trust that when you treat people who don't respect the flag as a moral failures.
saying the pledge without an opening prayer can certainly leave the wrong impression.
Opening prayer and the allegiance itself leaves the wrong impression. People should not be forced to partake in another's religion, nor should they be forced to worship the flag/the country.
That’s not how the legal system treats it.
I'm aware. The Left has a voice in the legal system, and as a result it's soft on crime, and especially crime related to this discussion. But in truth, an illegal immigrant cannot even brush his teeth legally if he does so on American soil.
The government deporting people based on political opinions like this is antithetical to the founding principles of our nation, and is un-american.
"Love it or leave it" is a traditionally American patriotic slogan. It's simple but true, and it applies to all things in life, not just the country. But when it comes to the country, it should be policy. I don't favor kicking out any legitimate citizen who recognizes this is the best country in the world, and would gladly fight and die to defend it. But for the leftists who hate America and want to change it to become more like some other country, they really need to pack up and move to that other country. There's nothing un-American about saying Americans ought to be American at heart.
It’s also a violation of the first amendment.
Not really, because I wouldn't want to take away anyone's right to freely express their position, even if that means criticizing America. They have every right to cuss up a storm while they spew their hatred of everything American, while I help them pack, and escort them to the airport.
I’m sorry but I can’t trust that when you treat people who don’t respect the flag as a moral failures.
That fact makes you certain I worship the flag? That doesn't make any sense. I stand up for my neighbors, and by extension my country, and by extension the cloth that symbolizes it. That's not worship. That's just following what Jesus said is the second most important commandment.
Opening prayer and the allegiance itself leaves the wrong impression. People should not be forced to partake in another’s religion, nor should they be forced to worship the flag/the country.
It's worthwhile to look at the background of the '62 ban on school prayer. Protestants read from the KJV, and Catholics didn't like the KJV. The argument was all about which translation to use in public schools. SCOTUS decided that the only way to solve the problem was to choose no Bible at all.
It's also worthwhile to consider the Crusades, which were successful by some measures, but are also widely criticized for valid reasons. One of those reasons is that it's truly impossible to force anyone to believe in a religion if they don't want to. And it's counterproductive to try.
So I agree that people shouldn't be forced to partake in religious practices against their will. But that just means we should leave Protestant vs Catholic fights to other forums, and prayers in public forums like schools should be generic. Whatever religion Americans hold, we can safely assume it's some form of Christianity, with a slim possibility of Judaism in some places.
When it comes to satanists, atheists, or anyone else who rejects the God for which America was founded, they should be given a genuine chance to repent and accept God before being politely deported.
And as for being "forced to worship the flag/the country", again, the pledge of allegiance just says "I promise to love my neighbor." If someone can't pledge to do that, you've got to wonder why they live here.
What is hateful about saying you don't care that people die if they 'don't fight like a man.' You're seriously asking that. First of all, your sexism is showing, second of all, how about the woman and children who flee in fear of being murdered? And no sympathy for jews dying in the holocaust cause they weren't armed, like that was their fault? Like you can just easily buy guns and ammo and fight back.
Please tell me how many wars you've fought in, you know, since you're such a patriotic man.Flags do not equal patriotic, people who use the American flag as a pseudo God can be insane, take Trump supporters for example, crimes were committed and flags were flown. Mhm, yes, really patriotic upstanding citizens.
If you can't see the hate you're spewing, you're blind and a fool. But keep spouting your bullshit complete holiness and then acting like a psychopath.
Please consider 10 USC §246, which defines the US militia as all able-bodied men between ages 17 and 45.
That may give you some background on my perspective. I expect able-bodied men to be soldiers, ready to fight and die to protect their families and neighbors at the drop of a hat. That's why we Americans keep and bear arms. It's not sexist to expect men to fight like men, and to find fault with cowardice.
It’s not sexist to expect men to fight like men, and to find fault with cowardice.
Have you ever seen liveleak videos of what cartels do to the people who stand up to them? Because I have. I've seen a guy get decapitated with a box cutter. If I were living in one of those countries, the logical thing for me to do is to get my family the hell out of there rather than to throw my life away in a failed attempt to take down a cartel.
The problem with what you've said isn't sexism, the problem is that none of what you said has any sense of realism. You can't pull yourself up by your bootstraps if you have no bootstraps.
What's wrong with you, watching a video like that? I'm traumatized just reading your description of it. Are you okay?
I get your point, and I don't think either of us can convince the other. The honorable man dies with his boots on. That's my position, and I'm sticking to it.
But really, I'm concerned about anyone watching videos like that. That's really disturbing.
What’s wrong with you, watching a video like that? I’m traumatized just reading your description of it. Are you okay?
4chan is a rough place and I will leave it at that. I only brought it up to point out how hopeless it is for any individual (and even governments) to stand up to cartels. You have an unrealistic expectation on how people should fight for the safety of their loved ones.
The honorable man dies with his boots on.
When the continental army was fighting the British, they were fighting tyranny illegally, and doing so with women and children and tow. Many of those soldiers died during retreating movements, without their boots on so to speak.
I don't aim to convince you, I'm simply here to point out that the rational thing is to recognize that getting your family out of danger through any means necessary is the moral thing to do even if it technically breaks the law.
I hear you. It's rather hard to convince anyone of anything, and the best we can do is listen and try to understand other people's perspectives.
While I personally don't favor retreat, I acknowledge that many do. I find it interesting to consider that our opinion on fighting versus retreat underlies our perspectives on illegal immigration, though obviously we're influenced by other factors and beliefs as well.
Please, for the love of all that is good, don't subject yourself to videos like that anymore. I mean, it's good to be aware of what's going on in the world, and it helps to make the point you made, but still, what nightmare material.
First of all, we were talking about people fleeing other countries and the Jews, not the US. Also, the US code subordinate to the constitution, and the constitution gives 'the people' the right to own guns. PEOPLE. Not just men, people. so no, it's not just dur dur men.
Again, your sexism is showing. Men shouldn't be expected to be 'manly'. Men are people too, they can be however they like. I thought you were all for people being able to have freedom, yet you're pigeon holing people into categories and defined characteristics. Which is sexist.
But what do I expect from a Christian.
This is just so off-topic and lacking in understanding that I'm not going to continue arguing. Especially with that closing remark. God bless you, pixelfox.