Daily Discussion Thread: Wed 19 Jul 2023
Daily Discussion Thread: Wed 19 Jul 2023
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Ew just found out my best friend listens to Joe Rogan's motivational stuff. She's a messy person who falls pray to bullshit quite often so I can only imagine she's hanging on every toxic unhelpful word he says.
I listen to some of these podcasts just to hear what the fuss is about, to learn about what my fellow humans are doing and why and ... I am amazed such intelligent people, like Rogan and Peterson, can believe such a lot of shite when the facts are so easy to find. It must take some real deep distrust of government to discard what is plain in front of your eyes.
I will say this positive thing about those popular broadcasters, they are kind and caring and insightful regarding the pressures endured by working class men and they don't call them deplorable. This is why they are popular.
Did you read this article too? https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/07/10/christine-emba-masculinity-new-model/
There's a huge problem and JP has found a way to exploit it.
I don't know that he is so much exploiting as the disenfranchised have latched onto him.
A really really really important thing to remember, and I cannot emphasise this enough, is that no one is all wrong or all right. Everyone is going to share some beliefs and disbeliefs with other people.
Unfortunately there has been a recent tendency ( note my use of the word tendency that Marx himself loved to use ) toward puritanical rejection of a whole person when there is disagreement on one issue. A tendency of rejection that has been amplified by the Russians using social media to create division in the Western world ( there is proof of this ) .
So you have people who feel rejected listen to Rogan and Peterson and they agree with some of what they say. Then they accept all of what they say through loyalty and group identity. Another thing is you overestimate how intelligent and reasonable people are. Average people just don't have the skills to refute them, ( I admit I struggle refuting Peterson and I'm pretty good at this ) he is amazingly intelligent with an IQ of at least 150.
Anyway, the attachment to the broadcasters is emotional, the disenfranchised feel they have a champion in these people, they feel heard.
I suggest if we want to limit the power of demagogues we start listening to people, that we stop telling them what they should believe and how they should live. Give them an ear.
I like you seagoon. I think you're clever.
In a similar way, I guess, I find it pretty ridiculous that people are quick to overlook that there may be some benefit to some of what JP is saying. There is, for some.
In the same way that people latch on to some of the negatives because they agree with the positives and want to feel part of something -- I feel the inverse is true, perhaps more true, that people immediately disregard the entirety of someone's veiws or works because there are a few bits that are an affront to them (hello cancel culture, and fuck ya).I heard Peterson rip a well known anti-trans and racist writer a new one. He saw right through her down to the deepest lie and told her to her face her position was based in her personal white supremacist arrogance . She paused for a short moment then continued.
Nothing will stop these haters, nothing. Because it is irrational. Her followers are also irrational and do not care about refutation. His interview was very instructive on what these people are like because it was real and in real time.
I am not so naïve to think that an interviewer necessarily agrees with what the interviewee says . I also think an interviewer doesn't have to label or spell out to the audience what they should think.
Should we avoid listening to things that are difficult? Of course not. If we want to change the world we have to learn how to do it.
Fascinating read, thanks for the link. I've not really engaged with any JP content, but I've heard enough about him to know to avoid it.
Avoiding is not the way. If we learn about it then we are better able to counter it when we see it.
And that avoiding is what I wrote about, it's cowardly to run from things you don't like. Face it, counter it, change minds.
they are kind and caring and insightful regarding the pressures endured by working class men
Joe's net worth is $120m and Jordan $8m. Not really sure that they care about the working class, other than to elicit Patreon donations from them.
You're right tho, they are intelligent people, they have both worked out that there is a cohort of disenfranchised young men (always has been) that, if communicated to in a certain way, can be used to build their audience. Bigger audience = more ad revenue, books and speaking tours.
So working class men are being told by these millionaires that traditional masculinity is in decline, that women have too much power these days, and minority interests threaten their very existence. LGBTQ, BLM, Equal Rights are all out to get the traditional 'man'. It's nonsense. These movements have been around for decades in one form or another, we just live in a time when some people can amplify and monetise the myth.
So the amount of money a person has determines the veracity of their words? It's irrelevant.
But people do tend to believe rich and educated people even when they are talking about issues in which they have no expertise. It's crazy.
I think it's a social status/work thing, people, especially men, tend to identify with their job or profession and when their is high unemployment like in the Rust Belt, they have crises.
maybe if society recognised men as more than their job they wouldn't feel so bad .